Hey, parents out there. It's Markeisha and Courtney, I've been MIA. And Courtney has been holding you down. So thanks, Courtney. But we're back.
We're back. Life happens. We're moms, we keep it real around here. Life does not care what our personal lives don't care about, our, our aspirations with our podcasts and all that. No, it
does not. So we were chatting, we thought we'd like let's make it a podcast, because I'm sure parents out there also have experience, charts, behavior charts in the classroom as a as a classroom management tool. And I can say that I did learn that when I was teaching general education and special education that that was a way to manage manage
the kids. Yeah, man, it's a costume a costume management tool, right?
But the more you know, the better you do, right. And it's now I can see, not now even even before what the problem is, with the with the with the behavior charts. Yeah, there's a lot of kickback from this, because I can hear the general education teachers saying, well, there's 30 students, how else do I monitor, or let them know that their behavior is not acceptable in class, and, you know, this is just the way we did it, the way we do it the way I was taught, and I understand that, but this is for parents, so.
And the truth is, even my husband's an educator, and he's taught multiple different grades. And he's also shared that he does not feel that they're over. Overall, they're not effective. And it doesn't help intrinsic intrinsically teach the kids. It's using shame, essentially, to get compliance. And one thing that we've been learning about individually and from even other educators and therapists out there on Instagram, is the best way to manage behavior and get kids to do what they should be doing is for it to come with it. And so if we're doing, I don't got off on a tangent, but even as a therapist, I would be like, earn two stars, then you get a sensory break. I No, no, that that isn't wrong. I used to do that. And so now I realized that if the child's not regulated, they're not available to learn, or to learn to communicate. So even as a therapist, I've done things I've been a SLPA. For a long time, there's things I did that I thought were great. And then I learned they weren't I adjusted, and I found a better way. And so I think, as a parent, too, just realizing that it is okay to say I did this, I heard about this from cornea markeesha, I'm going to try something different. Release yourself of that shame going on for ever it because as a mom, and as a therapist, I learn and grow and change. But being that we both have children with autism, I feel like it does not work. The clip chart only affects them even more negatively, in my opinion than other students. Because it's really hard for them to take to separate themselves from that or to take on that I'm a bad boy, because I was on red or I'm a bad girl because I was on red. They're not able to connect what happened before we're even during that then led them there. And so if they can't connect to that, to understand why they got moved down, and then some people leave them down there for a really long time. All they're fixated on is I'm still bad on read. And now they're not learning.
Nope, they don't want to they want to get Yeah, want to get off of red, because red is bad. And that makes me a bad person. Or even students they probably think I'm bad. They're not saying oh, what I did was bad or I don't have words. I'm big because this actually, I'm going to share happened to Joe. That's where we talking about I was going to dance around it but I'm just not going to dance around it. It wasn't his teacher was a sub, which is something that we talked about in our more than a safety plan workshop. Right. And something that parents probably have don't think about is like what happens when there's a substitute teacher? So that isn't utilized when his teacher is but she has substitute teachers take off right for their own reasons, and he got put on red. And he's at home today, because he could not get that. Sorry, I get to I'm getting choked up. That's all he told us yesterday. I'm bad. I got on red, I got on red and I'm bad. Well, what happened? Well, we're working on him expressing like, things like that, like, what? Quite what questions he couldn't tell me I don't, I don't know. And I was crying. And like he had a meltdown. She wasn't familiar with those types of things and got put on, got put on bed. And now
you got overstimulated things got off of his typical schedule that happens in his class, he got dysregulated, we're going to just start breaking down these terms for our other for other parents out there. So that happens, even as adults, you know, I didn't necessarily have gotten in trouble for getting dysregulated. And so we definitely don't want to be punishing someone for part of their disability. Part of something that happens if you have a sensory processing disorder, which is oftentimes, part of what people experience with autism is that sensory piece, whether it's volume, noises, different types of noises, if they're loud, if somebody's tapping, I mean, quite honestly, I definitely like I cannot, I cannot go to sleep, if the dryer is on, it just triggers me I can't focus on anything, I just hear the clinking of like the zipper. So you can recognize in yourself, I'm feeling you know, it's stressful when your teachers gone twice. So I'm not shaming anybody for taking off work. But that's why Craig rarely takes up. He's like, it's so much work to dig up work. And then so much you happen when you're gone, that he's like, I just, I would rather try to make it right. And so, but the truth is, we can't, we can't avoid that. And so we are talking about this with kind of the safety plan or the char or noting in the sub plans. But sub plans are so important. I've had parents that have worked with me on peanut allergies. And one of the things that I fought for on their behalf was, we need a clear plan that's well documented, or sub, because this is this is no joke. And then like you're saying, you know, things happen over here, he got dysregulated, something then on top of it was introduced that he doesn't use on a day to day basis, because it's supposed to be an individualized education, and does work for him. But that wasn't really clear. And so then on top of already feeling dysregulated because his teacher was gone, then he got more dysregulated because then something that's not even used with him, you know, was brought in. And so really that team communication and school wide communication is so important when we're talking about our kids that are on IEP s because there is a lot of moving parts, and there's things that can happen to our kids that are not okay, when those things aren't clear. And this had to do with the boundary book I was reading, but it applies clear is kind when you have clear, you know, strategies, clear protocols. It's kind to everybody, it's kinda Joe, it's kind to you. It's kind of the sub, because imagine like, if it wasn't clear, and they were using sobs, I don't know what it is in California. But here, the standard is so low right now, for anything. It's like fingerprint clearance card, high school diploma, there's nothing against if you only have that high school diploma, I'm just saying there is no additional training. There is no additional behavioral support or any of that maybe some schools do it. But it's not a requirement to become a sub nor is it a requirement in my state for a long term setup. And so some subs are there for one day, you know, other subs are there for an extended period of time or maternity leave. And depending on your state's guidelines, there doesn't have to be this additional training or support for them. So what do they have to rely on sub plans and what the team at the school is telling them because they might not have that background? And those are just the facts of where we're at right now with job shortage, you know, employee shortages. See, across the board, it's happening more and more. So again, it's even more important to make sure that we're clear that we have a plan.
Absolutely. And when we're talking about behavior charts, and when I started to learn about, like, you're feeling the shame, shame we both read somewhere on the internet, like, how would you feel if you went to work, and you were just everyone knew that you were late, or you were having just a bad that you're having a bad morning, coffee didn't go, right, it was too much traffic, you're running late, and then you get to work and you're on red. And everybody knows your business. Um, and we tend to feel like, you know, kids are their, their their people.
Yeah. And I think we, we, we wouldn't like it. But we somehow think while they're little, it's, it's different. It's not they. And in fact, I would argue I don't want to be like extreme on it. But we're writing their story, those internal messages with all of whether it's parenting, or teachers, therapists were a part of their, their young mind that's developing and what their messaging that they're interpreting and putting into themselves. And I don't want my kids to think I've actually had this conversation with my son with different meltdowns and things that happen. And it's like, Well, how could you still love me? I wasn't nice in that moment. And I because I said, Because I love you always. And we're working through how do we handle these different emotions. I said mommy's had to work through handling different emotions and frustrations. And as we get older, it might change. It might be a missing file on our computer, but we can get you know, something you typed up that got deleted, and you spent an hour working on it, and you're not your newsletters gone. that frustrates me, that sends me my, my feeling read, right. I'm like, I'm really frustrated. So what we're wanting is to start from that younger age of Lou, I feel myself heating up. I, you know, and then utilizing the tools, because we can see it in our society, I'm just going to call it out. We can see it in our society, when people don't have tools to regulate, when they're getting upset when they're getting frustrated when they're driving, and somebody is doing something that upset them. Or maybe they just weren't that great of a driver in that moment. How we react is again, we're pulling from our tools. And on our best day, right? We can say that was not to cut me off. That was really nice.
Well say what about when we're in the car? Yeah. You at Hong Kong? Yeah. Like, oh, according to your your own read for the rest of the day, your day is done. You have been upset at the traffic and flipped the money the bird? Not you wouldn't do anything like that. Hear? Sometimes, but I think you're a bad driver, because you got upset in that moment. So
I get scared to honk and people nowadays, that's my whole point is they don't regulate their emotions very well. And so even when you're you know, I've been at a stoplight and someone's not going and I'll let the person behind me do that too, too. Because I'm like, you know, I don't really want to
hop in the car with Dre, though.
Yeah, so it's just those, but that's our goal for our kids is teaching them those internal recognizing their own, what makes each of us tick differently, and something that might really annoy you. I'm like, oh, and that's, I don't want to divert. But that's kind of the whole thing with big problem, little problem. And that the approach again, I've done that in therapy. But the the real issue with that. What's a big problem to me is valid because it was a big problem to me. Now to someone out there. Like that's not a big problem. That's a little that's, that's no big deal, right? But that's really, that's really hard to say, depending on what you have going on in your life, what that child had going on before after school, getting leading up to that moment. There's a lot happening that we don't know about. And so teaching them those intrinsic internal things is so much more effective than a chart and I've just seen, you know, Hannah never had those charts but my other kids, it's it's been negative. It really, again, made them feel very, very bad about them. So Have so long after talking in class, you know, or long after not doing something fast enough. So I just opt out, yeah, opt out if you can opt out, I think on any level, but especially if your kid has a 504 an IEP, you have additional protections. And sometimes we think of these things as like, not me, but some people like I don't know, if I want one, there's a lot of protections that you have with both of those. One of them is customizing your child's learning plan and saying, that doesn't work for me.
The purpose really of discipline is to teach. It's not to be compliance. Yeah, yeah. It's to teach them about whatever their behavior or whatever they're doing. Just for all kids, discipline is not like, now you now you do what I say, you know, we're not for compliance. Or we like I'm to have autonomy over over you. It's really to look at what the problem is, and to teach them how to navigate that problem. In the future. That's what discipline is not to be, like, shameful, that's not changing that behavior. That child may go, always be a talker, they might just be a talker, or I had I was fostering Josiah his brother. Also, back back in the day. Long story that there he is him and his sister has adopted there's a long story behind that. It all turned out but he had been in a lot a lot of homes. So did Josiah. And his behavior in class was due to him. Not having a due to a lot of things for not even being in school, we're supposed to, you know, we just don't know what has happened. And even if it was a child that was not on an IEP to be a foster child, it would be a child, they could have lost their, their their home last night, their parent might work. I had a student before in general ed, his parent, but one parent worked at night. So he took care all his siblings. And so when he came to school sleep knocked out, we just let him sleep we found out like, Well, why? Because when he was awake, Courtney ate when he was awake, he did excellent work. This but you you so you sleep, there's time to take a test or you know, do you do it, but then asleep. And when we found out so we asked him because we learned a lot of things along the way. And I'm saying Lee because me and Dre used to teach math and science, language art. And he told us six siblings. My mom wants to work and I have to take care of all you know, everybody, and I'm tired. And it was a little one. So yeah, the you know, wake up and things like that. And so we just never know. And what if we would have like you're sleeping
on red for sleeping, putting on
paying attention in class, you're on red. We don't know the story. And I can hear some of the it's difficult. I had a student I had a that was a general education students I had, you know, crowd, the class limits get pretty high out here. It is difficult, but you know what else Courtney, every student didn't need that type of?
And what do we find? Yeah,
everyone didn't need that. So I wasn't doing that with every student. Because some students didn't need it. They didn't need they weren't sleep. Everybody wasn't sleeping in class. Right. But he did. And so I just, you know, it's everybody's not going to have the same situation. But that changed something for him, for us to have compassion and be like, well, what can we do to them to help you? You know, get some, some different kind of help? Or how can we help? At least?
Yeah. And the other thing that my husband has told me multiple times is the variation of who moves up and down does not change that much
Do we need to really put a spotlight that, you know, she's still at the top, she never moves.
So it really is okay, these like you were saying these students don't need it. These ones have something going on within them for whatever those reasons are. And so really niching down and figuring out what makes each of those kids tick and how you can support them is going to change your overall classroom dynamic more than this old tool that kind of, you know, it gets you to your student teaching and that's what your mentor did. And that worked for her and, and so sometimes things need to be recycled and not, you know, trash and not recycled, you know, and just, you know, and be like, that's what we knew, then we know better now. So we're not going to bring this back next year. And I'm going to try a different approach. And I would just challenge the parents to opt out. And I would challenge any teachers who listen to this to really try a different approach and really step back and go, did that work? And I think they would find that the new approach would work better than the
else is that substitute isn't dealing with what I'm dealing with today. And last night, and what me and his dad had to do how we have to talk to him how his siblings had to talk to him, like you're now back ribs back, you know, and so he per separates on, you know, red is red is bad. If he's at his school today. And she's doing, you know, not saying she's a bad person, that was the system that was in place for her to use. But I'm telling parents to at least speak up so that you can say, what are the odds alternatives? Because I don't know how long Well, I do know how he is about things, how long he's going to be saying that he got all right, you saw earlier he was talking to that's that's the his topic is that he's got on red and that he's bad. And that's where he ends. And he just keeps on saying that. And every time he says that, I just want to, you know, cringe reporting to him, like, you know, what, you know, what can we do, sometimes you do make wrong choices, but even if you made a wrong choice, you're not a bad person, you know, you can always make a different choice. Because he's, you know, he's a kid, sometimes he'd be doing stuff that he's not supposed to, but he's not bad. Like, I'm a bad kid, just means that it's your choice that you made a wrong choice. And you can make a different choice the next time. And so they don't have to deal with what we have to deal with. last night and today, and
and we don't know how much longer that's going to be a part of that of his story and how
he was never He was shook it about being he then was not happy. He doesn't want to get there like and even thinking about that. During the day, I'm thinking the anxiety that it brings for a kid, they'd be like, I can't make any mistakes. Are we? What we're asking? Yeah, we didn't study our kids. Yeah. Especially younger kids, even if they don't have a disability, they're still they're forming, right. So just thinking about someone who's highly anxious, like my oldest is highly anxious. And so when she saw those things, we talked about it now because she's 19 hated, I hated those charts, because I was always wondering, and she was straining students. So it's not just but she was still thinking, like, I don't even want to bring it that kind of attention to myself, because she didn't want nobody to she just wishes that she could just be a ghost. And so since nobody could see
still impacting her learning, because she was still about,
that's gonna get me off a green. Yeah. Not that she would. But she did think, think about that. Because it could be you know, you never know, you could have a bad day you can. The teacher could think that you're talking or think that you're doing this. And then she was that caused her so much anxiety now that she's older, the benefit of having older kids. Yeah, they can tell you. Yeah, they can, they can tell me
and it was still impacting her learning. Right? It was still even though she never got moved down. She was still thinking about what would happen if I get moved down.
Move down. There, she knew she wouldn't get in trouble at home. Because by that time, we had already known you know, we just don't do we just do discipline different around here. Right? Um, but it still that's still didn't take away even though she knew like, well, you know what, like, we call your parents. That wasn't like a motivator for her because she knew that we would listen and figure out what was going on. And then take steps. So it wasn't like she was afraid. Like, oh my gosh, you know, it was just like, the embarrassment of the classroom was what was worse than getting, like people. Everybody be like, oh, you know what, oh, you got it. Or when the whole class gets punished for one kid's thing, like everybody loses their recess. She was like she was she really didn't like that. Because she was like, I didn't do anything. And now we don't get recess. Yeah. Courtney was writing a note to her boyfriend in class. And
yes, hold the papers. were texting back in my day. So
I did get in trouble for passing notes. Oh,
see? Oops, read. No. I'm digressing.
All right. That's are taken behavior charts, so we didn't hold back. So there it is. We don't like
bad they get red behavior, charts get put on red. Right, exactly. So hopefully you guys found this little open dialogue conversation helpful. I would save to ask what type of system that your teacher is utilizing, and maybe listen to, you know the why behind because we want to try to cultivate collaborative relationships with his teachers, we are pro teachers, both our husbands, our teachers, I was an education, she is a slipper. So it's not against that, but we do want and care about the health of your family units because after school is done, that's what you're going to be left left with. So it's important to ask questions and there's nothing wrong to ask questions and make suggestions. So I always don't like to be complaining and be like you're not doing this. I can't believe you guys do this. I'd be like do you know if there's an there's an alternative to behavior charts and these are some things that I've seen have you heard about these things? Or Is anybody in your school using these things? So that its solution you know, solution based that you know, I didn't know until I started learning better I just use utilize the same thing. So
alright guys, we'll see you on the next podcast. Yeah.